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+--- Thread: என் இமைகள் மூடவில்லை........ (/showthread.php?tid=7346)
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-12-2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Eelavan+-->QUOTE(Eelavan)<!--QuoteEBegin-->
இணையத்தில் எங்காவது இவை உள்ளனவா?<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
என்ன என்று எனகு புரியவில்லை
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-12-2004
அன்புள்ள மணிதாசன் அவர்களை,
நிங்்கள் கவிபுலவரா?<img src='http://www.tamilterra.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-12-2004
மணிதாசன் அவர்களை..
நிங்கள் கவிபுலவர் என்றல் ்மிக சந்தோசம்` <!--emo&
--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Eelavan - 03-12-2004
கவிப்புலவராக இருந்தால் சந்தோசம் இல்லாவிட்டால் கவலைப்படுவீரா?
மணிதாசன் ஐயா நன்றி தகவலுக்கு தேடிப்பார்க்கிறேன் புத்தகத்துக்கு
- Mathivathanan - 03-12-2004
உந்தச் சின்னக் கொடிக்கு இந்தத் தடிச்ச நூல் கட்டியிருக்கு.. தொய்யிறதிலையிருந்தாவது ஏதொ பிழையெண்டு தெரிஞ்சிருக்கவேணும்.. அடிக்கட்டைமட்டும் உது போகாது..
<!--emo&
--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&
--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tongue.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-12-2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Eelavan+-->QUOTE(Eelavan)<!--QuoteEBegin-->கவிப்புலவராக இருந்தால் சந்தோசம் இல்லாவிட்டால் கவலைப்படுவீரா?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
கவலை படுவேன்
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-12-2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Mathivathanan+-->QUOTE(Mathivathanan)<!--QuoteEBegin-->உந்தச் சின்னக் கொடிக்கு இந்தத் தடிச்ச நூல் கட்டியிருக்கு.. தொய்யிறதிலையிருந்தாவது ஏதொ பிழையெண்டு தெரிஞ்சிருக்கவேணும்.. அடிக்கட்டைமட்டும் உது போகாது..<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
நிங்கள் சொல்வது ஒன்றும் புரியவில்லை<img src='http://www.tamilterra.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
- sOliyAn - 03-12-2004
<!--QuoteBegin-sWEEtmICHe+-->QUOTE(sWEEtmICHe)<!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Eelavan+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Eelavan)<!--QuoteEBegin-->கவிப்புலவராக இருந்தால் சந்தோசம் இல்லாவிட்டால் கவலைப்படுவீரா?
<!--QuoteEnd--><!--QuoteEEnd-->
கவலை படுவேன்
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->அவரும் 'வி---ப்' புலவர்தான்!! :wink:
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-13-2004
sOliyAn Wrote:அவரும் 'வி---ப்' புலவர்தான்!! :wink:நன்றி நண்பா <!--emo&
--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Eelavan - 03-13-2004
pAlum theLithEnum pAgum paruppumivai nAlum kalandhunakku nAn tharuvEn - kOlamsei
thungak karimugaththuth thUmaNiyE nIyenakkuch changath thamiZh mUnRum thA.
----AuvaiyAr
pUmpuhAr pOtRudhum pUmpuhAr pOtRudhum
vIngkun-Ir vEli yulakiR(ku) avankulaththo(tu)
Ongkip paran-thozuka laan. ------SilappathikAram, chapter 1.
In Tamil marabukkavidhai, there are four types of pAs: veNpA, AsiriyappA,
kalipPA and vanchippA.
These classifications, preceding TolkAppiyar but detailed in TolkAppiyam, were
based on musical considerations such as rhythm, temporal aspects related to
rhythm (timing of beats) and cadence (thr rhythmic flow of sounds). The musical
aspects of formal Tamil poetry is a very involved subject in itself and almost
completely neglected by the majority of modern poets. This is the isai thamizh
that forms the foundation of thamizh isai which was arranged in a systematic
manner based based on the four terrains of agaththinai the central component of
muththamizh; these are very well recorded in TolkAppiyam and SilappathikAram
(arangEtRakkAdhai). thamizh isai has been reoragnized in and rechristened as
carnatic music.
Even the teacher of u.vE. swAminAtha aiyer, mahAvidwAn minAkshi sundaram pillai
was guilty of neglecting isai thamizh. u vE sa reports in his autobiography,
"en sariththiram" ( a must read for anyone regular to this forum) that
mahAvidwAn gave an ultimatum to U vE sa to choose between music and Tamil
literature when he found out from the great Tamil music ((carnatic) composer
gOpAlakrishna bhArathiyAr (composed nandhnAr) that U vE sa was concurrently and
covertly learning Tamil (carnatic) music from bhArathiyAr; he told u vE sa that
they were mutually exclusive. Sad to note that even pillai being the great
treasure of Tamil literary knowledge that he was, had been ignorant about how
intertwined Tamil music and poetry were always; actually in those days (ca.
1850) TolkAppiyam and SilappathikAram along with other sangam literature wre
considered lost and that could partly explain the attitude held by pillai.
Tamil music was oraganized more systematically than it is now and it was based
on the agam thiNais such mullai, kurinji etc. and the times of the day assigned
to those thiNais. (harikAmbodhi was the main mullai paN and was to be sung in
th evening as mullai had evening assigned to it). So please start working on
preserving Tamil music (or carnatic music). It is not imported from some
foreign part of the world. It is the foundation of all Indian music systems. I
will write more about it later in a separate thread. While one may introduce
new forms of poetry etc it is important to preserve old ones that had been used
for more than 2500 years. Somebody has to undertake the task of preserving the
classical aspects of one's culture.
The basic building blocks are asai (syllable), sIr (type of metrical foot or
iamb) and thalai (juxtaposition of iambic patterns).
In this discussion, by vowel we mean a vowel either as an uyir or as an uyirmey.
a, pa, A or pA are all referred to as vowels. In any case the vowel is what has
all the weightage since vowels take up signioficant amount of time to utter.
An asai is the most basic unit; it is essentially a syllable consisting of one
or two vowels. A single-vowel asai is called nEr asai and two-vowel asai nirai
asai. As you can see the structure of names of the asais reflect the structure
of the type of the asai they name. that is, the word "nEr" itself consists of a
nEr asai and the word "nirai" itself consists of a nirai asai.
These asais are also directly related to the syllables used in verbalizing time
measures and beats in Tamil music and dance that everyone must already be
familiar with: thAm, thOm, thIm, thathim, thAthIm, thagathimida etc.
An asai ends whenever 1.one or more mey (pure consonant) follow any vowel (kuril
or nedil), 2. a nedil appears or 3. two consecutive kurils have appeared.
Example: analyzing a few stanzas of the above veNpAs, we have From Auvaiyar's:
pA -lum theLi-thE-num pA-gum parup-pumi-vai
From Silambu: pUm-puhAr pot-Rudhum pUm-puhAr pot-Rudhum vIn-gunIr vE-li
ula-girkk(u) ava-naLi-pOl
nEr : 1. pA 2. lum 3. thE 4. num 5. pA 6. gum 7. nAn 8.girk nirai: 10.
theLi 11. parup 12. pumi 13. puhAr 14. gunIr
Note that if a long vowel begins an asai, then that asai ought to be a nEr asai
(number 7 in th example above) ; but if a long vowel occurs as the second vowel
in an asai then that asai ought to be a nirai asai (num 13 and 14 above).
An important point is that mey (pure consonant) sounds have no significance
except to help in separating two asais. This is because they by themselves
consume no significant measure of time when singing an asai. That is: a, am,
pa, pam, A, Am, pAm are each treated as an asai. Actually even when two mey's
strung together are still treated as part of one asai: ula-girk from Silambu
above.
Part 2: sIr and thaLai:
sIr (or seer): sIr is very different from the concept of word. A sIr is a
string of one to four asais. two and three sIrs are most common. sinlge asai
sIrs occur as final sIrs in veNpA and four asai sIrs are common in vanchippAs.
sIrs are with various restriction on their occurrence determine thalais which
ultimately determine the characetristics of the various pAs. The boundary of a
sIr need not match the boundaries of the words that occur in the pA. A single
word may span multiple sIrs or a single sIr may contain parts from one or more
words. The split is determined based on the specific context.
The rest of the info on sIrs mostly how are they named which very logical.
There are different types of sIrs and they have interesting names too.
The basis for classifications is the number of asais in a sIr and each
permutation of asais has a name for easy notation. 1. Or asaichchIr: As said
before, 1-asai sIr occurs in veNpAs only and that too as the final sIr only.
They are nAL and malar.
Even though at first it would appear that or 1-asai sIr should not need new
names since only a nEr or nirai can appear, a nEr with kuril is not acceptable
as 1-asai sIr. This is easy to see since it is difficult to end a veNpA in a
kuril. To notate this, the subtype of nEr that can occur as a 1-asai sIr is
called nAl with a nedil. That is why, you will observe that veNpAs of
Thirukkural etc. end in asais like thA, lAn etc.
As for the nirai sIr, due to aforementioned musical considerations such as
cadence and timing, veNpA precludes certain types of nirai sIrs also. We will
get to the details when we deal with veNpA construction.
2. 2-asai sIr Four types of 2-asai sIrs, since there are 4 possible
permutations of 2 types of asais in two different positions. The syllables used
to construct the names are thE, puLi, karu, kU, viLam. dervide from names of
trees and fruits. Note that these names themselves are nEr and nirai asais.
nEr nEr :thEmA e.g., pA-lum nirai nEr :puLimA enak-ku nEr nirai : kUviLam
pUm-puhAr nirai nirai: karuviLam
All four of these may occur in a veNpA. But as we will see it is the
restriction on their juxtaposition that distinguishes veNpAs.
An asiriyappA may have any types of these juxtaposed without restriction.
But in a veNpA, a -mA must be followed a nirai (mA mun nirai) and a -viLam must
be followed by a nEr (viLam mun nEr). Or in short hand, Among all (4) possible
juxtaposiitons of 2-asai sIrs, only mA mun nirai and viLam mun nEr qualify to
occur in a veNpA. e.g., from Silambu: pUm-puhAr pOt-Ruthum pUm-puhAr
pot-Ruthum
3. 3-asai sIr The eight permutations each have a name. In addiiton to the
naming components used in 2-asai sIrs, two new naming components, viz., kAy and
kani are used to notate the nEr and nirai asais that can be appended to the
2-asai sIrs.
nEr nEr nEr :thEmAngkAy nirai nEr nEr :puLimAngkAy nEr nEr nirai :thEmAngkani
nirai nEr nirai: puLimAngkani nEr nirai nEr : kUviLangkAy nirai nirai nEr:
karuviLangkAy nEr nirai nirai: kUviLangkani nirai nirai nirai: karuviLamkani
A veNpA is permitted to have 3-asai sIrs also but those sIrs must end in -kAy
which means four subtypes of 3-asai sIrs are permitted. Even then, they *must*
be followed by a sIr beginning with a nEr. That juxtaposition is termed kAy mun
nEr (nEr forward of kAy).
From AuvaiyAr: theLi-thE-num pA-gum nirai-nEr-nEr nEr-nEr kAy mun nEr.
Pleas check that the veNpAs quoted above obey these rules.
4. 4-asai sIrs: Used in vanchippAs. We need not go into details. One
important note: you must remember that in Tamil a vowel followed by another
vowel most often gets elided (suppressed or consumed) and the succeeding vowel
is what remains. All these rules are applied after allowing for such elision.
Let's take thesecond stanza from the Silambu veNpA: vIngunIr vEli ulagirkk(u)
avanaLipOl
here if the rules are applied before elision of the "u" in parentheses, then you
will see that a kAy mun nirai results which is prohibited in a veNpA. You will
observe that reading pAs wihtout decent amount of elision of vowels often
results in poor flow of the sound as you get into the habit of reading the poems
with the appropriate candence.
Thalai: Thalai is simply a juxtaposition of sIrs. Thalai is a fundamental
construct that determines the musical aspects of a pA. A thalai is specified by
which asai succeeds which type of sIr. Here we use the shorthand "x" to replace
the word "mun". Asiriyath thalai: -------------- 1. mA x nEr 2. viLam x
nirai 1 & 2 are classified as Asiriyath thalai since they are typically employed
in AsiriyappAs.
veNthalai. --------- 3. mA x nirai 4. vilAm x nEr 3& 4 are iyaRchIr
veNthalai.
5. kAy x nEr veN sIr veNthalai
kalith thaLai ----------- 6. kAy x nirai kalith thaLai
vanchith thalai ------------- 7.kani x nEr 8. kani x nirai 7 & 8 are vanchith
thalai.
Types of pAs: ------------- ThaLais impart a characteristic cadence (Osai ) to
a pA: AsiriyappA - agaval Osai - that of peacock's cry veNpA - cheppal Osai
kalippA - thuLLal Osai vachippA - thUngal Osai
It is the veNpA that has the most restrictions on the types of sIrs and their
juxtapositions that can be used in constructing it. For example, an AsiriyappA
may have both AsiriyaththaLais and ven thaLais. But the rules themselves are
not too complicated.
vacnhcippAs *generally* have vanchith thaLais but may have other thalais also
especially kalith thaLais since it has 3-asai sIrs and 4-asai sIrs. kalippA is
the next more restrictive type of pA. It has certain types of subcategories
that have compicated structures used to compose long poems.
Part 3: veNpA construction rules:
veNpA: ------ we are right now ready to get into the details of the rules for
construction of a veNpA.
A veNpA may, depending on the type of veNpA, have anywhere from 2 (rather 1 3/4)
adis to 12 (11 3/4) adis.
kuRal veNpAs have 2 adis and nErisai and innisai veNpAs have 4 adis.
The rules are: 1. All adis except the last one have four sIrs. 2. the last
adi has 3 sIrs (mukkAl adi). 3. the only thLais permitted are veN thaLais: mA
x nirai, viLam x nEr and kAy x nEr 4. The last sIr of the veNpA (the third sIr
of the last adi) shall have the following form: a. if a 1-asai sIr then: nAl
- nEr asai with nedil malar - nirai b. if a 2-asai sIr, then the sIr shall end
in sIrs of the followin form: kAsu (nErbu) - first asai a nEr with a nedil and
then a nEr with the vowel "u" piRappu (niraibu) - first asai a nirai with two
kurils and then a nEr with the vowel "u". The rules for the last adi impart a
chracteristic sharp end to the recital of veNpAs. Examples: rules 1, 2 and 3
do not need more examples. A for examples of rule #4: 1. nAl: both veNpAs
quoted above.
2. malar: katRadhanA lAya payanenkol vAlarivan natRAL thozhAr enin.
3. nErbu (kAsu): Ana mudhalin adhigam selavAnAl mAna mazhindhu madhikettup -
pOnadhisai yellArkkum kaLLanAi EzhpiRappum thIyanAi nallArkkum pollanAm nAdu.
(auvaiyAr - nalvazhi)
iruL sEr iruvinaiyum sErA iRaivan poruLsEr pugazhpurindhAr mAttu. (thirukkuRaL)
4. niraibu (piRappu): vAkkuNdAm nalla manamuNdAm mAmalarAl nOkkuNdAm mEni
nudangAdhu - pUkkoNdu thuppAr thirumEnith thumbikkai yAnpadham thappAmarch
chArvAr thamakku. (auvaiyAr - mUdhurai)
thanakkuvamai yillAdhAn thAL sErndhArk kallAl manakkavalai mAtRal aridhu.
(kuRaL )
nErisai veNpA: Now outside of kuRaL, the most popular veNpA is nErisai veNpA
the one with 4 adis and a thanichhol (or a special sIr) in the second adi. All
the four adi veNpAs quoted above are nErisai veNpAs. the thanichhol has the
following rules applicable: it must have edhugai with the first sIr of the
second adi. Everybody must already be familiar with edhugai (as in monai and
edhugai). matching of the second phonemes of two sIrs; this requires that the
first phonemes (vowels) be of the same length (both nedil or both kuril).
1. nALum kalandhunakku nAntharuvEn - kOlamchey (from above)
2. nOkkuNdAm mEni nudangAdhu - pUkkoNdu (from above)
3. eNNum ezhuththum iyalaindhum paNnAngum paNninRa kUththup padhinonRum -
maNNinmEl pOkkinAL pUmpuhArp potRodi mAdhavithan vAkkinAl Adarangil vandhu.
(Silambu - arangEtru kAdhai)
You would also notice that nErisai veNpA gets an additional quality in its
cadence due to the thanichhol: you have to pause after uttering the sIr
preceding it and it has an edhugai with the first sIr.
Please don't be scared by the rules they are really simple and logical.
Well we are all set to compose veNpAs!
Please practise reciting veNpAs with the right cadence then analyze them for
conformance to the rules. Then it is easier to compose veNpAs.
ALmost everybosy must be having access to ThirkkuRal which has kuRal veNpAs.
For nErisai veNpAs i suggest that you look under the Tamil electronic library
(http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5180/) for e-texts of Auvaiyar's nalvazhi etc.
In the mean time, I suggest that we start with completion of a kuRal veNpA that
ends and/or starts with a particular sIr. Initially for practice, I suggest
that we use only the words nEr, nirai, nErbu and niraibu to construct a kuRal.
For example, a kuRal that ends in nEr and uses only the above listed words would
be: (the simplest possible one and the dullest possible veNpa!) nErnirai
nErnirai nErnirai nErnirai nErnirai nErnirai nEr.
You may try to impose additional constraints such as start with nirai etc.
Here is a final jist of the rules - Balaji
the only combinations allowed are
(i) kAi mun nEr (ex. manankoNduth thUngAdha)
(ii) viLa mun nEr (ex. kaviththuva nOkkilE)
(iii) mA mun niRai (ex. peyyum varai)
Orasai (1-asai) and nARRasai (4-asai) sIrgaL are forbidden.
Just stick to these rules and one should be able to compose good veNbAs.
(the rules donot mention the word kani and hence kanis are not allowed!)
ஒரு இணையத் தளத்திலிருந்து வெண்பாவின் யாப்பிலக்கணம்
என்னறிவுக்கெட்டியவரை தமிழ் படுத்திக் கொண்டிருக்கிறேன் விரைவில் களத்தில்
புலவர் பெருமக்களே முடிந்தால் தமிழ் படுத்தி உதவுங்கள்
- Eelavan - 03-13-2004
phozhil Wrote:ஈழவர் எழுதியது,ஈரசை துணையோடு.....
Quote:அதுசரி சோகம் அது தான் sweet
அதுக்காக அழுதுகொண்டே இருப்பதா எங்கே அழாமல் அடுத்த கவிதை
கவிதாயினி வடித்தது,
Quote:Eelavan <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='laugh.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:lol:--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='laugh.gif'><!--endemo-->
-----------------------------------------------------
ஈரசை துணையொடு ஒற்றைச்சீரில் களத்தின் 'க' விதை கவிதையானது அருமை. :wink:
---------------------------------------------------
ஈரசை துணையொடு ஒற்றைச்சீரில் =[ஈ, ழவன் - இருஅசைகள்,ஈழவன் - ஒருசீர்]
க=ஒன்று
விதை=வித்து
'க' விதை=கருத்துக்களத்தின் ஒரு நல்வித்து
ஈ-நேரசை
ழவன் - நிரையசை
ஒரு சீர்-ஈழவன்
அப்பா பொழில் வெண்பா வரிசையில் இப்பா எப்பா?
சிறு வயதில் படிக்கையில் புத்தகத்தில் வாசித்ததை நம்பாமல் திருக்குறள் தளைதட்டுகிறதா என்று ஒவ்வொரு குறளாக அசை பிரித்து பரிசோத்தித்தது நினைவுக்கு வருகிறது
இலக்கணம் நினைவூட்டியதற்கு நன்றி
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-13-2004
மன்னிகனும் ஈழவரை
நிங்கள் சொல்வது ஒன்றும் புரியவில்லை <img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
- phozhil - 03-15-2004
Eelavan Wrote:அப்பா பொழில் வெண்பா வரிசையில் இப்பா எப்பா?ஐயா!
ஒற்றைச்சீர் யாப்பாகாது .ஆகவே ஈழவன் என்பது ஓர் உயர்தினை ஆண்பால் பெயர்ச்சொல்லாம். தங்களுடைய உண்மைப்பெயருக்கு நாடுச்சார்ந்த சிறப்புப்பெயராம்.
விவரங்களுக்கு,
www.thedmk.org/ilak/yapp.htm தளத்தை நாடவும்.
- Eelavan - 03-15-2004
அறிவேன் ஐயா அறிவேன்
ஒற்றைச்சீர் வெண்பா ஆகாது என்று
ஆயினும் ஒரு நப்பாசை முரண் இருக்காதா என்று
தகவலுக்கு நன்றி நண்பரே
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-15-2004
ஒன்றும் புரியவில்லை <img src='http://www.tamilterra.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
- Mathan - 03-15-2004
sWEEtmICHe Wrote:ஒன்றும் புரியவில்லை <img src='http://www.tamilterra.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
எனக்கும் தான் சுவிற்மிச். இது பண்டித தமிழ். நம்ம தமிழ்ல வரும்போது புரிஞ்சுக்கலாம்.
- sWEEtmICHe - 03-15-2004
BBC Wrote:எனக்கும் தான் சுவிற்மிச். இது பண்டித தமிழ். நம்ம தமிழ்ல வரும்போதுமனதில் செதுக்கிய சொல்லை
புரிஞ்சுக்கலாம்.
அளிக்க நினைதால்
அழி்வது சொல்லல்ல அந்த மனமை
செரி நண்பா<img src='http://www.tamilterra.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
- Eelavan - 03-15-2004
அன்பின் நண்பா
தங்கள் தமிழெதுவோ செப்புவீராயின் ஐயம் திரிபற விளக்கவுரை தருவோம்
- Mathan - 03-15-2004
ஏதோ செம்பு, குடம் பத்தி சொல்றீங்க. கடைசியா நீங்க சொல்லுற தருவோம் புரியுது. அது அடி, உதையா இல்லாம இருந்தா சரி <!--emo&
--><img src='http://www.yarl.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Eelavan - 03-16-2004
செப்புக் குடமாயின் புளி போட்டு விளக்கலாம்
அடி தேவையென்று கேட்டால் அதுவும் தரலாம் இரண்டு அடி போதுமா? நான்கு அடி வேண்டுமா?(நான் திருக்குறளையும்,நாலடியாரையும் சொன்னேன்)